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A “professional” model posted this on one of my social media pages. I would especially like to hear the opinions of models, but also photographers and others.
"Someone on my timeline posed an interesting topic and I’m curious what the photographers/models on my timeline think of this. My opinion is if I am doing trade, I have no real obligation whatsoever. If I am getting paid for a shoot, then I am obligated to show up and be on time as that is a paid job. Of course I keep in communication regardless of whether it is paid or trade. But if it’s a trade thing I feel like it’s very laid back where sure I’ll agree to shoot but I may wake up that day and decide I don’t want to or I might have to change the day or time or something. Same goes for the photographer. They might wanna cancel or show up late. It’s not like a serious big deal. I feel like I see a lot of photographers complain on here about models not being on time or not showing up for shoots but 9 times out of 10 they aren’t even being paid…I think both parties communicating with each other goes a very long way too." May 21 24 01:41 am Link I see a problem with what you have said. Treat every opportunity professionally whether it is paid or not. If you agree to shoot a TF theme and don't feel like it is the morning, you need to sort yourself out. Where there could be nothing of value to the shoot for you. it could be quite important for the model. They may have invested in makeup, hair, clothing, accessories and transportation. So, if you do a last minute cancellation or pull a no-show, you have injured the other party.
I have done over 600 model shoots. In addition, I've had many cancellations and no-shows. Guess what, that is what happens in the industry. If you think everything planned happens 100%, you are naive. Instead of thinking how you benefit, think about how you showing up and doing what you agreed to do as helping another person. I had a shoot with 4 fitness models and the makeup artist didn't show up. There was a cosmetic store nearby, so I bought some items the models told me they needed. The shoot went fine and they were happy with their images, I didn't think I could use the photos as I was not in the fitness market, but I was happy to meet them and do networking. A couple months later, one of the models phoned to thank me again and offer me a paid opportunity on international television. I hadn't known that she was the casting director for a major production on television. The industry had a long memory of who did not honour their commitments. I have a list of people that backed out on some of my photoshoots, even paid ones. I listen to models when they tell me about photographers that have backed out on them. Because I shoot internationally, I get requests for references from travelling photographers and models. Often, I tell them who is problematic and has a history of putting photoshoots at risk. My advice is to choose another industry if you don't want to honour your commitments. Whether paid or trade, treat it as a professional obligation and bring your "A" Game. There should be no such thing as treating as a laid back approach. As Yoda says "Do or Do Not". If all you have to do to be a better photographer is to honour your commitments, then that is a pretty easy step. May 21 24 11:09 am Link Dorola wrote: May 21 24 02:49 pm Link To clarify, in case you didn't understand. This was posted by a model not me. I believe a trade shoot is a paid shoot. Just paid with photos and time not currency and should be treated as such. May 21 24 03:00 pm Link The same applies to models, photographer's, MUA, HA, designers and anyone involved. I've worked in other industries like manufacturing, engineering, military, sales and sports. Those that don't honour their commitments rarely thrive. May 21 24 03:40 pm Link The carefree attitude of someone who may or may not show up based on how they are feeling is a sign that they lack ambition to achieve success. If the love of creating images does not get a person motivated enough that they will show up regardless of if money is involved, I think they are missing out on potentially great accomplishments. May 22 24 05:20 pm Link The problem is that too many people see working for Trade as working for free, and it isn't. One skill profession works with other and they all get great images and networking .
If I ever had a model say what the op quoted I wouldn't never work with her even on a paid shoot because she proudly announced she has no integrity May 25 24 09:34 am Link Dupe post May 25 24 09:34 am Link 
Model Posts: 6749 MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica Photographers LOVE to show up for the shoot and have the "experience" but they don't like to get around to editing images and sending the model any. "Professional" models learn this very quickly. They also learn that photographers own copyright and many use the TF images for commercial purposes.
A non-agency freelance model who treats her business seriously quickly learns that appreciative photographers will send plenty of usable images for her portfolio from paid shoots. There are a lot of talented photographers who aren't in the photography business and earn enough money in their day jobs to pay a model a decent rate. I'm not sure why the OP is choosing to bash a model who is not even on this site, but I guess we've run out of models here to talk shit about? There's no context and we don't know if what he said was what she actually said. There were no quotes or screenshots.... May 26 24 04:44 am Link I don't take what is purported to be one model's opinion on trade vs paid at all seriously.
Nor do I take the old trope that photographers always take forever to send models trade shoot photo seriously. Opinions are not facts, there can be endless opinions about a single fact but the reverse is seldom truth. May 26 24 09:10 am Link I personally do not agree with that individual's opinion. Shooting trade benefits everyone and can produce the most collaborative photos that benefit everyone's portfolio. Also, many trade shoots lead to paid shoots. It is always in every crew member's best interests to treat every shoot with the utmost respect and do your best work. May 31 24 05:29 pm Link Dorola wrote: +1
Jun 01 24 04:52 am Link I've always treated trade shoots exactly like paid shoots.
However I have been NOT given my prints & been given sub par crap printed on typing paper more times than I care to admit. Needless to say, I no longer do trades, unless I trade for prints of other artwork that is already finished & will be delivered on the day I am modeling. The other issue I have had in the past is portfolio leaps where I would book a trade shoot months out, then do so much other work, that the original photographers work was just thrown out because it no longer helped my portfolio. These days, I turn down more paid modeling jobs than accept because others can't seem to understand that there is no need to spend 3 hours emailing, txting, & planning a 1 hour shoot. I also don't book "full day shoots" very often with just one simple concept, it does not take 8 hours to shoot simple figure nudes, even when using a large format film camera. I spend my time creating art, not talking about it. https://www.carlefactory.com/model Jun 26 24 09:08 am Link ammodphoto wrote: So, you are saying you are a flake.
Jun 26 24 09:12 am Link Yes. I don't do the trade shoots, and I do the paid ones.
Hypothetically if I agreed to a trade shoot right now, I would not commit as much effort. As in, I'm not going on a hike, traveling far, working really hard, getting cold, being uncomfortable generally, being around a person I don't like very much, risking getting mediocre photos back (you're going to need to be as good as the best photos in my portfolio on my website), risking getting very few photos back, doing a long shoot, and it needs to be within my specific aesthetic preferences. In this hypothetical situation of agreeing to shoot trade, I would treat it the same as a paid shoot in terms of showing up and putting for the amount of effort I agreed to commit to the shoot. So, in summation: Easy, fun, high skill level, no annoyance or discomfort, lots of pretty photos comparable to the best of what I have, short shoot duration I find that people do not like these requirements. Around 2017 or so, I told someone I'd trade with them but they had 30 minutes. They got upset. Guess I'll just sleep in and not do my job for free then. What a bummer. Creating with people who truly value your time and abilities is usually a better experience in all respects anyway. If you're thinking about trade versus paid this way, just do paid shoots. Truly, you will be better off for it. Jul 17 24 04:07 pm Link TFP is an agreement to shoot, just the same as a paid shoot. The mentality of the post you shared, is nonsense. If a model cancelled a shoot on such a basis, they would never get called again, by me. I have too much prep time and wardrobe, and equipment prep to do, to tolerate that kind of behavior. Often those shoots can be on location, also, and those locations may require fees out of my pocket whether I come or not.
NO, either be professional and show up, or lose the opportunity! Mar 08 25 09:24 am Link I thought I was pretty clear that I was repeating what a model posted. I treat every shoot the same and have never failed to follow through with a shoot, paid or trade.
I was just shocked that a professional model would not take any booked shoot seriously. She also stated later if she had a paid shoot booked and got a last-minute offer for more money, she would do the better paying shoot and didn't see anything wrong with not going to the lower paying shoot. PS. I'm not talking about a couple friends shooting for fun. Apr 15 25 12:33 am Link Almost 20 years ago, I'd fly across the US for trade shoots. Back then, photographers would trade traveling models a place to stay in their homes or studios and often airfare costs, in exchange for multiple days of shooting. I used these trade agreements as ways to plan trips and design tours, and I made a living as a traveling model this way back in the "good old days" of MM. It was rewarding work and some of my good friends I still have today were people I met through travel on MM over a decade ago. I modeled professionally from about 2007 or 08, up until the Covid pandemic hit. By that point, trade had changed a lot. It came to mean models would still be expected to commute hundreds of miles, but cover the cost of lodging themselves once arriving, and MAYBE receive 2-3 images. Hopefully, you'd be able to book other paying work in that photographer's city once you arrived, but I'd sometimes drive 10 hours to shoot with someone, book 5 or more paying jobs with others to cover my overhead and pay some bills, only to get into a hotel room after a long day of driving and find that half my work for that week cancelled. In the days when I typically received lodging at a particular photographer's home or studio as part of a trade agreement, if a bunch of people canceled, I had little to no overhead cost that I had to eat.
At a certain point, it no longer became useful for me to build travel around image-only trade. I needed to have some other stuff covered, or only do paying shoots, in order to make it worth my time. About 7 or so years ago, I drove from Boston to St. Louis to work with a photographer there on a TFP basis. He canceled on me the night before. I had 2 small paying jobs set up there, so it wasn't a wash, but if my sole intention has been to make money, I'd have chosen to go to another city where I had established repeat clients. This is not to disparage trade work, but to express that it is complex and a huge risk to take when one is a model and must anticipate significant travel for one's regular work. Apr 15 25 06:36 am Link Generally speaking, I only do TFP on entirely new models, who have nothing to show me. However, I use another term for that, which is a "testing". I will do a simple testing, with minimal prep, to evaluate the model, in terms of how well they follow direction, whether they can do a decent make up / hair styling on themselves, and how well they understand modeling categories, including how well they can select an outfit to use in the categories they are being tested in. The entire purpose of this testing, is for designing regular shoots, in the future, if I like the potential of the model. If the model selects categories to test in, that call for lingerie or other intimate looks, I will also evaluate the model's comfort level with that, as i have to know that, to plan shoots for lingerie, some swimwear, glamour, etc. If I feel the model is not comfortable, then I won't plan such shoots with that model, unless she changes her comfort level to do those. They are not for everyone, but once they begin to model, they may get more comfortable as they progress. However, I do have experience in training models, so that makes me a little different from other photographers. Let me reiterate this one thing............models who wish to do REAL fashion, must fit the mold for that. If you are not 5' 8"-5' 10", or even a little taller, you are not going to be a fashion model. Period. You can do fashion looks, from your own wardrobe, but if you don't wear "sample size" you cannot model in real fashion, for fashion clients. Shorter models can do other categories of modeling, to include almost anything ELSE, from lingerie to product, and parts.............but not outerwear fashion, because the models have to fit sample size.
If the model has any experience at all, I may try them in a limited paid testing, where they are compensated, but new to me, to see how well they work, and they can choose cash, or images, if they need images. They can choose either, or a combination thereof. Locations with fees, are not part of this testing. Models that can show me their work in all categories they choose to work in, I will class as more experienced models, and I will pay them for each shoot I do with them. If models want images, from their paid shoots, then they can pay me for those, or negotiate their fee in advance. I am pretty accommodating, but I don't give free images to full fee models. I do use model data forms, which provide all essential size information, contact information, and categories of modeling, (with definitions, degree of exposure where applicable, to work in that category.) That is required of all models, preferably in advance of scheduling any shoot, and I encourage a get acquainted interview of new models, especially those with little or no experience. I also use a questionnaire, which is designed to give me some indication of attitudes, which can be critical to a good shoot, vs a bad shoot. I find attitudes are important in evaluating new models. Get acquainted interviews allow for trying on different outfits selected to fit the various categories the model has indicated she would consider working in, brought by the model to the interview. This also gives me indications of the comfort level of the model for any categories selected, that might be intimate or revealing, as well as indicating how well the model does understand the various categories. I use a pretty standard model release, and the type of shoot, with specifics, is noted, dated and signed by the model, after which, they receive their check (or other compensation) for the shoot. The release is a broad release for almost any kind of use, by the photographer or his assigns. I have NEVER had any model complain about how their images were used, because I use good judgement about where they are used. These steps simply prevent wasting time and money on models, who can't really do the work as required. It is better for both parties to know what to expect, and make each shoot a positive experience with excellent images. Then both parties will be happy with the sessions, and we avoid having to interrupt, or cancel shoots altogether, because of misunderstandings. Modeling is something you can do full or part-time, but you have to know what to expect, be compensated fairly, and be willing to earn your money. The photographer needs to have confidence that their investment in planning and carrying out a shoot, will not be wasted. Sometimes that can involve a good deal of money, and for those photographers who do shoot commercially, they have to know the shoot will run smoothly, so the client will receive the quality of work expected, as unhappy clients seldom come back. Apr 15 25 11:20 am Link I don't do straight trade shoots with photographers.
In the past, when I was somewhat open to it, these were my requirements of trade shoots: -Shoot cannot last more than one hour and preferably is around 30 minutes -I prefer film photos - especially medium or large format -I will not be shooting any concept that I do not love for a trade shoot -I will not travel long distances - or realistically anywhere that's not super convenient for me -I must receive the images within a month, and I'd prefer to have a lot of the photos. Most people sent me the entire rolls of film they shot -I prefer to do these shoots with young photographers (under 30 years old), especially young women -The photographer cannot be wealthy because it's simply ridiculous to ask working class people to work for free when you're wealthy -I must like the portfolio - the way I evaluated this was to look at the worst photo they had posted. Would I be okay with that photo being of me? No? Then I'd pass. Very few people fit into this category of course, so trade shoots pretty much never happened. On the off-chance someone fit in that category, then we usually had a nice shoot. But none of these requirements are applicable to a paid shoot, so I'd say that's quite a few points of major difference. I'm completely unwilling to agree to work hard, in uncomfortable (read: cold) locations for trade - especially if those locations require me to travel at all. Hypothetically, if I'm agreeing to a trade shoot that meets all of the requirements listed above, I will show up and do the job I agreed to do. But it's not as serious as a paid booking. Photographers can get a bit upset at this all they like, but this is pretty simple psychology type stuff. We're going to treat the more serious booking more seriously, and I think demanding otherwise would be demanding a complete overhaul of our brains and decision making processes. May 30 25 06:12 am Link |
